Quote from: Mrs N on February 26, 2018, 09:34:47 PM
My opinions are just that...opinions.   

It basically all comes down to this.

Also - why am I still a newbie? How many post do I have to post to get a promotion!?

50.  Plus however long it takes the software to recognise your new status.  You're nearly there.

Boom! Junior member. I'm gonna go and bully some newbies :-)

Quote from: Shortcross on February 27, 2018, 10:00:41 PM
Boom! Junior member. I'm gonna go and bully some newbies :-)

The sum total of a Junior member's ambition! ;D ;D ;D go for it!! Or die trying!

I appreciate that everyone has taken the time to comment on this: a terrific sign about the health of the BWF community :).

I've tutored in the past (science, not writing) and as a scientist, I tend to automatically categorize and, for this board, adjust appropriately.

1. Low level grammatical mistakes and significant problems with storytelling

My role can't be to coach them through this on a forum - there's just too much advice to give (!) and as they develop, they will pick up grammar, meter and storyboarding. I'd probably pick two high level pieces of feedback and provide encouragement on additional work. At this stage in their career getting more experience is the most important. Directing them to Strunk & White might just bring on an embolism.

2. Some problems with storytelling, phraseology can be improved, but reads OK

Advice on what might be the route cause, but let them work out the kinks, they have enough experience to go away and find the answer.  8) Well done on getting it so far.

3. They're a genius, possibly Tolkien

Seek advice. Try to befriend them. Where appropriate, grovel.



rookie

There is much debate in the educational world about how to go about letting the little kiddos (I word I loathe) know they are absolutely freaking wrong.

There is much debate on how to develop what the darling little kiddos call their self of steam.

There is talk of the millenials and their "gimme" world and what that is going to mean in the coming decades.

First of all, I assume members here are adult or mostly so. So the tender feelings of the kindergarten students my sister shepherds through their first year of school can be put aside.

The way to develop self esteem is to achieve shit. Not pseudo achieve, but actually accomplish the thing. Telling someone their writing is adequate when their grammar leaves you wincing several times within the first few paragraphs is not a service. It is a lie. Perhaps you think you are committing a kindness, but really, do you like it when people lie to you?

We cannot give out accolades to one and all and have them still mean anything. To get praise, one must earn it.

Certainly, there are only two logical conclusions to be drawn from false praise.
1. The person giving the false praise is an idiot.
2. The person giving the false praise believes I am an idiot, unable to learn.

Sandwich your critique between slices of praise if you want. It is nice if you can find good things to say. Be kind in your corrections. And make sure they are correct. (That last phrase was not a full sentence, began with the word AND, and was not correct, but done for effect.)

There are entire books out there written about fortitude, grit, self reliance, and ability to deal with life. We probably won't solve this issue in a short thread on a writing forum.

If you believe your writing is ready for any type of critique, post it. If you don't want to hear anything bad or negative about your writing, there is really no need to put it up for critique. Place it in The Coffee Table section.

^^^ That's it in a nut-shell.

H3K

The soft shoe board is where the truth can be told in a gentle way.

- I found these (detailed) grammatical problems here, here and here (detailed) in the first three paragraphs. If you read your work carefully you will find there are more of the same throughout.
as opposed to
- This work is riddled with grammar issues. I suggest you read some books on sentence structure and the like. Strunk & White is a good place to start.
- Or, as on one occasion, I questioned the premise of the piece on the basis it is the author's responsibility to suspend my belief, and I wasn't convinced. I would not have posed those questions on the other board.

Which just might mean it's down to individual personality, i.e. that some of the members only crit in the shark tank, and others, not.

We would all do well to understand, both as writer and critter, on whichever board, that all critique is a matter of opinion.
Things change. It became acceptable where I live to start a sentence with a conjunction before I left school.
Style could trump traditional norms. He. (Not a sentence) Jumped. (Not a sentence) but these two non sentences convey specific action. A whole story written in non sentences would be difficult to read, but might win a literary award of some sort.

Consider that book that started as the fetus learning to communicate and the 'language' improved with growth and development.
I could not read that book. Some crits on these boards would have been brutal.
It won a literary award.

All of the above, my most humble opinion.

You have to understand the rules of punctuation in order to break them. The trouble is, some wannabe writers don't believe punctuation matters - it's all about their right to express themselves rather than their ability (or not) to write.

H3K

I've recently read and mostly enjoyed a three book series (so far) despite some glaring errors.  Most of them are down to the wrong but close word choice, which sometimes forces a change of tense.  'Periphery vision' instead of 'peripheral vision'.  I wonder if they have a wide if slightly flawed spoken vocabulary and are using voice recognition software, and then trusting the spell-checker too much.

I won't mention the name for two reasons.

One is that the writer is an excellent storyteller, with tales which romp along despite the speed bumps.

Two, by the third book the errors have been seriously reduced, so either the writer is learning on the go, or someone else is casting a cold and trusted eye over the text before they hit 'publish' on Kindle.

But if I was paying £10 for a non-physical book instead of £1-99 I probably wouldn't have bought volumes two and three, and then I would have missed out on three 'good yarns'.

Perhaps the nearest analogy would be when you buy a whole magazine just for one or two articles which justify the price for your own needs..

Gyppo

Before you can debate this you need to agree if you are debating:

a) Content
b) Tone

What seems to be happing on this thread is that any criticism of tone is defended on the basis of content.

Mark

I agree that it's all about tone. No one has recommended giving false praise. Just keep the snark out.

And I have to say, the millennials I know are busting butt to reach their goals. You do a disservice slapping a label on an entire generation.

I will throw my oar in on this. I hardly ever critique work any more. I have been on a half-dozen writing forums over the years, and I used to do in-depth, line by line critiques of SPAG. But I seldom got any feedback. It was almost as if the writer wanted approval of the content, and did not care a whit for the errors that riddled it. They did not welcome SPAG corrections.

Content, structure, and pacing are somewhat matters of opinion. But SPAG is not. There is right, and there is wrong. So now I just lurk.

Quote from: Mister URL on April 14, 2018, 01:11:01 AM
I will throw my oar in on this. I hardly ever critique work any more. I have been on a half-dozen writing forums over the years, and I used to do in-depth, line by line critiques of SPAG. But I seldom got any feedback. It was almost as if the writer wanted approval of the content, and did not care a whit for the errors that riddled it. They did not welcome SPAG corrections.

Content, structure, and pacing are somewhat matters of opinion. But SPAG is not. There is right, and there is wrong. So now I just lurk.

Hey, what is SPAG? I keep wanting to add 'bol' to it. ;D ;D